Dog Fighting For Breeding Purposes
Disclaimer: This writing arose from discussion forums about dogs and from personal experiences / opinions of several people and serves educational purposes only. The photos and writings placed in this chapter have an informational character only and their goal is to make the reader familiar with a purely theoretic possibility how to replace the real / professional dog fighting by a sporting one, which is legal in some countries. The information written in this chapter is telling our private opinion only and it is no officially recommendable instruction how to train dogs. It only shows the reader our point of view. That is why we do not warrant or assume any legal liability or responsibility for the accuracy, completeness, safety or usefulness of any posted information.
Long ago, one guy who called himself a "Bulldog" and who was said to be an expert on dog fighting told to me, that if taken from moral viewpoint, the only acceptable reason for dog fighting are breeding purposes. He said that when people fight their dogs for money and / or for their joy, it is a very bad thing that should not be condoned. But if it deals with a little bit of fighting to keep dogs used for breeding in shape or to recognize if a male who breeds females is in good shape then its okay.
As a well-known proverb says: „Fire is a good servant but a bad master.” And it is fully valid for dog fighting too. It can be both the factor that destroys dogs and the means how to prevent their degeneration and how to keep their physical and mental shape including social feeling.
Another example. Heavy and dangerous drugs are banned whereas light and normal cigarettes are allowed. I wish that legal authorities would have the same attitude towards a light and safe form of dog fighting serving breeding purposes!
I am a fighter against any real / professional dog fighting and against gamebred dogs especially. But I am a symphatizer with safe and mild forms of dog fighting like Temperament Test (òåñòîâûå èñïûòàíèÿ âîëêîäàâîâ) in young dogs who are to be used for breeding, because me is convinced it is really good for dogs. It is my personal opinion as well as opinion of many other people.
There are countries where dogs tear one another to pieces and there are countries where there is no dog fighting. I think that both of these extremes (fight to the death and no fight) should be replaced with a soft and milder form of dog fighting. For because of the cruelty and bloodiness of real dog fighting, these fights are becoming banned in many countries and their sporting form is legalized instead, dog wrestling most often. Mr. “Oguz” explains: „When wrestling, it is forbidden to bite so much to harm the opponent. It is not cruel. It is a sport.” “Gatman” is adding: „Yes, a lot of countries are embracing this and it is not illegal. I know countries like China, India, Japan already dog fitness fights.”
First of all, let us realize the difference between a dangerous fight of dogs in it's real, professional appearance, and on the other way round in it's sporting and limited from. When professional and/or real dog fighting, dogs fight often and they are chased against one another and the fight often ends in a heavy injury or death. The fights are hold either for money or for gameness-keeping and participating dogs belong to fighting breeds, usually.
The fact is that any real and professional dog fighting is a cruel thing and I disagree with it. I also disagree with that “gameness”. But on the other hand I think that sporting fighting is useful to dogs.
There are six main kinds of this milder and sporting form of dog fighting:
Play Fighting (Playfighting)
It deals with fighting plays that are between a puppy and an adult dog, above all, or among young and familiar dogs. Dogs play using fighting techniques at that but they do not hurt each other.
Play fighting of a Boerboel with a American Bulldog x Pit Bull cross:
Two German Shepherds do a fighting play:
Agar
and his acquainted dog called Basty (Agar let Basty snap after himself):
Fitness
Dog Fighting
Let's give us a question first: Is Fitness Dog Fighting a new discipline of sporting fighting, a modified Temperament Test or a sharper Play Fighting only? Anyway, Fitness Dog Fighting is no real dog fighting!
Fitness Dog Fighting (FDF) = examination of dominance tendencies in young dogs (two times a life) under the sight of humans to prevent an injury = a greater pleasure than pain is caused to the dog (it realises itself both socially and physically, and it makes it more happy than unhappy since it's feelings are pleasant, it discharges itself and has no significant injury at the same time.).
The motto
of fitness dog fighting:
If dogs will fight fully up to the bottom of their powers, they will mutilate or kill each other. And on the other hand, if they will not fight at all, they will degenerate and will lose their original genetic endowments. That is why fitness dog fights are practiced to preserve the original genetic endowments, to satisfy dogs desire to fight and to keep them healthy at the same time.
However, when doing fitness dog fighting, it is necessary to go by the following rules:
1. Both fighting dogs must be young so that their skirmish won't be dangerous. They should be around the border between a puppy and an adult dog, let's say 1 - 1,5 year old (despite this the carefulness and immediate impact of humans are necessary in case of a threatening injury).
2.
Both participating dogs must be equally strong.
3.
The owners keep a several meters distance off the dogs to make them behave naturally (dog with the owner beyond it's back can be more aggressive).
4.
The fight is taking place in a natural environment, somewhere in the meadow at best (like ordinary on a walk).
5.
The dogs are not forced to fight but they are unleashed and they only fight if they themselves want to. And if they do not want to fight there is no fight.
6.
Participating dog is fighting a strange dog only, because a familiar dogs' fight within the pack - for example - does not prepare the dog for a real conflict with a strange dog (for instance our experience with a Dogue de Bordeaux male that used to play up to fight with familiar dogs, but he however has not been mentally prepared for an attack of a strange dog that wanted to hurt him).
7.
When the fight seems to be dangerous to one of the dogs, the owners have to tear the dogs off each other immediately.
8. Fitness dog fighting is not practiced with fighting breeds of dog [for example a Pit Bull that wants to fight up to the end because man created him for this. Yes. But the other, normal dogs, fight one another and stop in time most often without necessity to strangle the other one - simply said they only clear one another about their position (like in the pack)], but with larger guard and utility breeds only (a bit of dominance is their nature) - with the Molossian ones that are not the fighting ones par excellence (Bull Mastiff, Fila Brasileiro, Dogue de Bordeaux, English Mastiff, Spanish Mastiff and so on).
Photos of dominant behavior and Fitness Dog Fighting at the same time between an average Rottweiler and an over-grown German Shepherd. When they met, firstly they neither growled at each other and looked broad-minded. A little later, they had snapped at each other for several times,
but ceased very soon. Then they were going around and smelled each other.
After a longer while, there was a short fight between them:
After the short while, the dogs ceased to snap and walked around each other again.
Then they had symbolically snapped after each other for the last time,
and finally, they parted calmly.
In conclusion, I would like to say that even though the Fitness Dog Fighting is very similar to the Temperament Test, there are some differences. The two main are that the Fitness Dog Fighting is to happen two times a dog's life because of the higher effect of the repeated experience and patricipating dogs can fight other breeds of dog also except for their own only (one time their own and second time different breed of dog). For if they fought their own breed only, by time they would turn very bad toward their own breed and would be less dominant toward other breeds. Therefore it is suitable to preserve their endowments of domination also against other breeds of dog by fighting them too.
[Russian dogmen said that the FDF is a beer without alcohol and that it only allows to see the dog's facade. It will not allow to discover the dog's resistence against pain and so on. To be frank, they are right. They also said that the FDF could be more legally acceptable (than full fights) in the countries focused against dog fighting (like USA or UK).]
Temperament Test
Dogs have to show dominance tendencies and no fear of other dogs. In Russian language, this temperament test is called "òåñòîâûå èñïûòàíèÿ âîëêîäàâîâ". Dogs who do not pass this test are removed from breeding. As Russian cynologist Farmatsevt said: "Temperament tests is a centuries-old tradition of search of the best Wolfhounds which will participate in breeding selection." Shortly who will win, he will breed the bitches.
Example of Temperament Test in Central Asian Ovtcharka:
Example of Temperament Test in Kangals:
Many people from Western world and Europe, above all, always speak of sadism but these dogs were used for fighting with wild animals, for protection work and for fight with other dogs too. If Volkodavs will not fight at all, their original fighting abilities will decrease. And one of the ways to keep them are dog fighting tournaments (e.g. "Caucasian Championship") or it's softer form practiced with young dogs which is called "Temperament Test" in Middle Asian Ovtcharka (also in Caucasian Ovtcharka).
Wolfdogs are not companion breeds of dog and they need - now and then - a little bit of fighting. I agree with it because dog fighting is an irreplaceable way to preserve the original nature of these dogs. And I strongly hope that Russian people will be reasonable enough to continue with this best way of dog training and will not let Western culture and laws interfere into their actions lol.
I am against long fights where dogs severely injure each other, but when less dangerous and shorter fights especially with young dogs, I find it more useful than harmful. And one more thing: when the winners of dog fighting tournaments will give birth to puppies, it is almost like a natural selection, because the puppies will take after the strongest fighters and will be very strong as well. Please understand it.
To get more info about the temperament test, please visit http://www.petsinform.com/volkodav/test.html and http://www.gurhan.ru/tests.php. There is a lot of info but all written in Russian language.
Dog Wrestling
It deals with a wrestling fight in the ring. Humans control both dogs to do not bite each other dangerously and they are allowed to wrestle going by the rules. This wrestling consists of long-lasting fights and participating dogs must be in good shape to stand it for long minutes. The most well-known example of the Dog Wrestling is Tosa Sumo Wrestling from Japan.
Tosa Sumo Wrestling is a popular dog sport (or a tradition) in Japan (and South Korea). Dogs are competing under the sight of a human watcher (he interferes in the case of necessity) as we can see on the following photos from Mr. Lee (http://www.fightingtosa.com):
The other excellent web site hosting Tosa wrestling videos is http://www.tosainu.jp/index2.html:
I have seen tens of Tosa Sumo Wrestling videos. The dogs are comprehensively trained even in the fighting respect. Mr. Pavel adds: „Not a single one of the fights is the wrestling with no drop of the blood oficially described in this way by breeders (I understand it, they do not want any negative image of the breed). No, it really is not like that. But litres of the blood do not fall down and fighting readiness and the qualities of the breed are kept genetically.“
Muzzle Dog Fighting
Participating dogs are fitted with muzzles to prevent an injury. But this is not sufficient way to keep the dogs fully fit in fighting respect, although they can train chest-to-chest impact, some snapping and show some dominance tendencies.
Protected Dog Fighting
Both participating dogs must wear a special protective clothes that prevent any injury. They can bite the protective clothes of the other dog fully and there will never be any injury. The main thing that is not trained at this is a pain-resistance.
_______________________________________
The truth is that I am a man that do not want let the dogs degenerate. I like breeds like Bandogge, Boerboel, Bull Mastiff, Cane Corso, Dogue de Bordeaux, Fila Brasileiro, Kangal, Mastweiler, Neapolitan Mastiff, Perro de Presa, Russian Volkodavs and Rottweiler. And I want to preserve their original shape. I simply believe that the breeds of dog lived in the history by a certain way and thanks to it they developed as they developed. And if we do love them, then we should provide them with what they were doing through the ages, so that in given case a bit of fighting, too.
When I met a Dogue de Bordeaux male (he was released without a leash and without a muzzle) which my dog (RTW) easily defeated and which was not able to defend himself, I realized that the owners of the Dogue and of his ancestors bred them to be companions only, and those dogs began to degenerate. Some of them cannot defend against other dog (but some of them are still very good fighters!). If this will continue, my beloved breeds will finish or will change into the manure. Without a bit of fighting, they will degenerate quickly.
Some discussion on the subject:
As Mr. Torin said: „Yea, that's true, why let the dogs fight, but much of doggy pain was needed to enable the inception of such breeds like Pit, Tosa etc. Also other breeds had to pass their exam (RTW, Fila etc.) and now I have to agree with Mr. Kastl a little, that it would be the question of few generations and we have four-footed fondlers here. If we take it into consideration, so in a form of a play or I do not know how to say that, it surely is useful to let dogs of the same weight fight. But it is not possible in all breeds. The breeds like Pit, Dogo etc. can fight to the lest drop of the blood because it is given by genes in this way. In GSD, RTW, there can also exceptionally be fight to the death, but it usually ends in what was on the video (video of fitness dog fighting, where dogs snapped a bit but did not hurt each other – comment).“
Someone no-named told me this: „It is not about animal cruelty if two dogs fight who want to... and by the rules if someone of the disputants read them (the rules of fitness dog fighting two times a life under the sight of humans; two times because of the higher effect of the repeated experience – comment)... Try to release two Pitbulls, Rotties, Central Asians, Caucasians or other dominant dogs... what they would do? They will attack one another... Of course, it could be suppressed, but why, for these dogs are unique and charming just with that...“ I answer: You are right. For they want to fight and so-called “normal breeder” will never allow it. Many dogs are in a better mood after they fought, as I know from experience. Simply said, they released their old emotions and drives. And if it is in accordance with the rules and under the supervision (to prevent injuries), then I think it is more useful to dogs than harmful.
“Trocha do mlyna” is complementing, that: „To what was said by Mr. Kastl on the very beginning (the beginning of our discussion about this subject – comment), to simply keep the dogs by means of fitness fights. Firstly it sounded moronically, but if we thought of it deeper, it is true. No fights to the death, but controlled fights.“
When adult dogs meet and display dominance tendencies, it is also a good way to keep their physical shape and social feeling (Agar and his acquaintance, Bandog Apollo):
[In the beginning, Agar and Apollo treated each other relatively softly (see the photos), only showed their teeth and jostled into each other (we thought they could become friends). However, Agar used to attack Apollo to win the leading position and once when walking the dogs in the forest, there was a fight between them (the fight looked scoreless in the beginning, but later Apollo was better), and we finally had to tear the dogs off each other. Since that time we held them separately and on a leash.
One time Apollo was at his owner's girlfriend place who bred Great Danes. It happened that Apollo fought there a giant Great Dane male. The owners had to separate them using water. The scoreless fight lasted several minutes and both dogs were equally wounded.]
Bredy and Agar (when they were released, they used to make such a gesture and snapped after each other symbolically):
Mr. “Chvd” has this meaning of it: „Fitness Dog Fighting = the concept created by one man, nothing is called like that in praxis. Dog does not have a wrestling in it's genes, but a fight for it's opponent's subjection only. And this could be those fitness dog fights. So that it could end after a minute, 10 seconds or only by a growl. But that all is described here (the FDF rules - comment). It should not be about fights but about displaying of natural dominance tendencies, do we understand one another?“ Mr. “Chvd” further adds: „Fitness Dog Fighting was talked of here. Is it illegal, forbidden by law????? After all, there is no such term officially, one man recently came with this idea. You read FIGHTING the word and you may receive a hysterical shock. Let you take a Kynedryl or a Rohypnol or how it is called or contact your physician. Originally, FDF had to serve as the fight against dogs degeneration and for the keeping of natural dominant tendencies, whereas gameness (which is developed in fighting breeds for real dog fighting - comment) is a from-A-to-Z denial of social feeling and within-the-pack behavior. Dog's descendants (when a gentle modern education - comment) already will not know it(FDF- comment). Logically, there will only be a degenerated spoilage of the dog. And to prevent this, it was the original intention of the man who came with this idea. Either we want to have dogs or exterior templates, that should be made clear!!
Every proper (or not-degenerated) dog should display some dominance tendencies. Without them, it could not assert itself in the pack neither take a valid position among other dogs. To be strong genetically, these tendencies require their experiencing including some snapping / fighting with other dogs. With no dominance tendencies, the dog ceases to be a dog (and after all, dog is a beast!), but becomes a degenerated spoilage instead. If we suppressed the dog's dominance tendencies, we destroyed it. Mr. “Chvd” explains: „Dominance is necessary in all the dog breeds. The breed that displays no natural domination is not breed of dog any more! It is only desirable to do not lose the natural domination and desire to assert oneself. The author does not want to breed the dogs for FDF, he wants to help the non-degeneration of the dog family by means of it. The author does not claim that if one dog will do fitness fighting, that it is clear that it will not degenerate. But here is the thing that matters: If all the dogs of a GSD breed will not fight at all - in the frame of clearing themselves about their position - let's say during 50 generations, what will then happen about them?“
As to what could be said about genetics and it's relation to Fitness Dog Fighting, “Chvd” explains: „It is clear that dog is born with genetic equipment. But it can be influenced by controlled selection in the course of generations. I think that natural aggression (rather domination than aggression) is desirable at least in some breeds. And if man changed some dogs into couch toys, then I am really sorry and I disagree with it.“ About the difference between professional (real) dog fighting and the fitness one “Chvd” tells the following: „The difference is that when FDF no one supposes that after the end one of the dogs will miss it's nose, ear, paw or will have a serious injury!“ Further he adds: „For which breeds is it suitable? I CANNOT ANSWER PRECISELY, BUT I SUPPOSE THAT FOR THOSE THAT ARE TO STAY TO BE DOGS AND NOT COUCH PILLOWS! SURELY NOT FOR GAMEBRED LINES WHICH ARE LEAD FOR FIGHTING NOT FOR DOMINATION!!“ About usefulness of FDF and Temperament Tests (òåñòîâûå èñïûòàíèÿ âîëêîäàâîâ) in CAO, Mr. “Chvd” says this: „Why the selection of breeding dogs consists in it? A mistake? And not only in CAO. Of course, now I do not think of an exterior CAO as fleecy dogs with no use! There are many dogs that will rather play and no one will force them to fight, but there are dogs who would - in Nature - try to become the leader, so why do not let them try it... simply to fight... The dogs know when to cease most of the time (and if they will not know, a human will intervene – comment)...“
Some people suggested to let the dogs fight fitted with muzzles, but I am convinced that this would not be enough to keep them fit in fighting respect. When muzzles, the fight is different and dogs cannot train naturally. I have seen it for several times. Dogs had monocles under their eyes and grazed noses. They can also fix themselves that it uses to happen without biting the other. That would harm them even if they can train chest-to-chest impact and mutual pushing. Apart from this, when fitted with muzzles, they can often bite their face through or their teeth can hook to muzzle's wire.
One way or other, the sporting dog fighting is less dangerous than the real one and accordingly to the opinion of the most people participating in our discussion, it is more useful to dogs than harmful.